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Author Topic: calling Maxwell's Daemon  (Read 47091 times)

Offline nul-points

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Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2011, 08:49:16 PM »
@Omni

the circuit is there to provide a load on the battery (it draws current by charging C2, which is then used to energise inductor L2)

the current draw will discharge capacitor C1, as expected, in the absence of the battery

the battery may well sustain larger currents by using lower impedance loads (presumably with a resulting reduction of operating voltages) but i haven't yet extended my tests to investigate this variable - at the moment i'm characterising the thermoelectric behaviour of the present system configuration

(i'm sure it's clear enough that these cells weren't constructed with a view to providing sufficient output for consumer-level applications)


@mark

thanks for your erudite and timely comments re. IR spectrum energy

hopefully, my user tagline gives a clue that any reference to Maxwell's Daemon here may be a little 'tongue-in-cheek'

what conversion mechanisms do you feel are likely contenders for producing an excess of DC electrical energy from comparatively high-frequency IR energy?

(i'm not questioning the possibility of IR conversion - my view, so far, is only that any excess energy gained by the system is of a heat-related origin)


thanks for your interest, gentlemen

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2011, 08:49:16 PM »

Offline Omnibus

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Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2011, 09:15:43 PM »
See, I'm not at all interested in consumer-level applications. It seems puzzling to me, though, that the battery can be recharged at these current levels. But my question regarding current was more connected with possibilities to correctly measure it which I'd be interested to do with my equipment. Unfortunately, I don't have apparatus capable of masuring current in the uA range. Therefore, I would be interested to see if you'll observe the effect with higher currents. All this would be to clarify the nature of the excess energy and confirm its reality. Is this your own invention or is something known which you are developing?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline XS-NRG

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Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2011, 09:47:00 PM »
It is voltage that decides if the battery charges or not clown.
Current has got nothing to do with that.
If your voltage is too low you can connect it to a 100.000 Amp capable supply but the thing isn't going to charge one uV.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2011, 09:50:20 PM »
It is voltage that decides if the battery charges or not clown.
Current has got nothing to do with that.
If your voltage is too low you can connect it to a 100.000 Amp capable supply but the thing isn't going to charge one uV.

spam


Offline Omnibus

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Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2011, 09:59:56 PM »
Voltage may be above the thermodynamic value for an electrochemical process to take place but if no current passes then there will be no electrochemical reaction taking place -- that is, there will be no recharging. It's the current that characterizes the rate of an electrochemical reaction.

Here in this case it is puzzilng that the current is very low and yet there is a boost in the voltage upon recharging (that is, anode and cathode of the battery have undergone the necessary electrochemical conversion to get higher Gibbs energy potential difference than when battery is depleted). One thing that has to be seen, as was mentioned, is whether or not that is just the temprature dependence of the emf. As I understand, even at this point it can be eliminated as a probable cause, maybe. That has to be studied more. Then, the other point that was made, that the capacitors may somehow act as galvanic elements should also be dismissed on view of the low current level. So, there's something not very clear anout what's going on there.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2011, 09:59:56 PM »
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Offline XS-NRG

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Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2011, 10:54:27 PM »
Voltage may be above the thermodynamic value for an electrochemical process to take place but if no current passes then there will be no electrochemical reaction taking place -- that is, there will be no recharging. It's the current that characterizes the rate of an electrochemical reaction.

Here in this case it is puzzilng that the current is very low and yet there is a boost in the voltage upon recharging (that is, anode and cathode of the battery have undergone the necessary electrochemical conversion to get higher Gibbs energy potential difference than when battery is depleted). One thing that has to be seen, as was mentioned, is whether or not that is just the temprature dependence of the emf. As I understand, even at this point it can be eliminated as a probable cause, maybe. That has to be studied more. Then, the other point that was made, that the capacitors may somehow act as galvanic elements should also be dismissed on view of the low current level. So, there's something not very clear anout what's going on there.

SPAM

Offline XS-NRG

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Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2011, 10:54:42 PM »
spam

Omnibus the SPAM-Clown hahahaha

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2011, 10:54:42 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2011, 11:09:27 PM »
Omnibus the SPAM-Clown hahahaha

spam

Offline Omnibus

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Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2011, 11:10:19 PM »

Offline nul-points

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Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2011, 12:52:30 AM »
@Omni

the circuit is a current drain on the battery (although a proportion of the inductor-stored energy is recovered via the LED)

so it isn't the circuit which is providing the energy to recharge the battery (otherwise it would also be able to recharge the main capacitor without the battery present)

hence the excess charge in the battery is getting converted from a type of energy other than electrical (so an ammeter wouldn't help)

i believe that some form of thermoelectric conversion is occurring in the cells which is working synergistically with the more usual galvanic action to store the excess energy converted from heat

Mark has suggested that this heat might be arriving in the form of IR energy, with the cell acting as a kind of solar cell but responsive to the IR spectrum

i'm not equipped to measure those kinds of energy forms, so i can't comment on that


as far as the development of this particular battery is concerned, this is the fourth combination of metals and/or electrolyte with which i've experimented:-

 - first of all i tested Cu & Al foil with just paper separator and starch glue as electrolyte

 - secondly i replaced those metals with Ni & Zn foil

 - thirdly i tested the original foils with honey, paper & starch

 - finally i tried the present combination

since starting this thread, i've noticed a few other experiments on this forum which are reporting the same thermoelectric behaviour (all galvanic-related cells, all low-current, recharged by ambient heat) - although the cell construction varies quite significantly amongst them (and differs from the cells in my experiment)


my next development for this experiment is a baseline system with a similar circuit as load, in a similar enclosure, but using two NiMH cells in series as a battery

these NiMHs are both 1.24V nominal but have been in a discharged state for some months and their present total on-load voltage is 2.21V

i'll be monitoring the voltage and temperature of this system for a general comparison with the DIY cell behaviour (the two enclosures are adjacent)

in addition i'll be monitoring the (also enclosed) third DIY cell's open-circuit voltage & temperature, so i can report back on the thermal characteristic of an unloaded DIY cell


(@XS-NRG & @Omni - if you're going to have a pi$$ing contest then do it in your own threads)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2011, 12:52:30 AM »
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Offline XS-NRG

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Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2011, 01:17:31 AM »
yes did you ever heat up or even boil battery acid?
it speeds up the thermal motion within the liquid.
direct heat to electricity conversion.
i offered it years ago but it was dismissed because of it's toxity.
offcource you must understand that there is always a way around these problems but the person dismissing it didn't understand that because he was a Clown.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2011, 01:18:07 AM »
Now, that's more exotic an explanation than I'm used to. My approach is to explore the conventional avenues first. At this point I can't see how the circuit would have a different role than what it's role is according to conventional electric theory. You've explained it well and there's something very clever about the circuit even in conventional terms. Also, a battery is a battery, it's emf is due to difference in chemical potentials and I can't see how such difference in chemical potentials (in fact, electrochemical potentials) can be developed just by draining heat from the environment, be it radiant or through conduction.

As for @XS-NRG spam, I agree, someone should take care of him and of couple of other spammers who have invaded the forum.


Offline XS-NRG

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Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2011, 01:20:42 AM »

As for @MrMag spam, I agree, someone should take care of him and of couple of other spammers who have invaded the forum.

Who is the one writing "Spam" under valid comments all the time?
It is you Clown.

And i'm not Mr Mag so get your story straight buddy.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2011, 01:21:39 AM »
yes did you ever heat up or even boil battery acid?
it speeds up the thermal motion within the liquid.
direct heat to electricity conversion.
i offered it years ago but it was dismissed because of it's toxity.
offcource you must understand that there is always a way around these problems but the person dismissing it didn't understand that because he was a Clown.

spam

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline XS-NRG

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Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2011, 01:22:15 AM »
See that's exactly what i mean.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: calling Maxwell's Daemon
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2011, 01:22:15 AM »

 

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